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   Meccanica Quantistica

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  •  Lord9600XT
      Lord9600XT
Re: Meccanica Quantistica
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Iscritto il: 13/7/2012
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dino ha scritto:
Citazione:

Merio ha scritto:
Ok Dino, devi ancora dirmi allora come mai vengono fuori quelle immagini...
secondo quel modello io do il radiofarmaco, che contiene un isotopo instabile il quale libererà un positrone altrimenti detto antielettrone... ora questo ad un certo punto interagirà con un elettrone e darà un fenomeno di annichilazione... otterremo due raggi gamma aventi direzione opposta l'uno verso l'altro e con un energia pari a 511 keV... questi verranno rilevati da un apposito sensore e otterremo alla fine della fiera un'immagine diagnostica...

Quei raggi gamma devono venire da qualche parte... se non avviene un annichilazione cosa avviene secondo te Dino?

Se la tua teoria è tanto efficace e completa, sono certo che risponderai senza problemi...

Inoltre tanto per divagare un po', volevo una tua opinione circa la Teoria del Caos... qui abbiamo come soggetto di studio dei sistemi dinamici particolari che seppur studiati nelle stesse condizioni iniziali, presentano evoluzioni finali di difficile previsione e sempre differenti... un esempio potrebbe essere lo studio della traiettoria del fumo di sigaretta...

Pace ai vostri sensi


...l'esperimento che hai raccontato è una semplice trasmutazione chimica... mi viene in mente solo un esempio, forse non molto ortodosso, ma è il migliore che mi viene in testa... prima si facevano le molotov con una bottiglia, si riempiva di benzina ed insieme al tappo si incastrava uno stoppaccio che imbevuto di benzina ed acceso... innescava il fuoco quando la bottiglia di vetro si rompeva... poi sono arrivate le molotov chimiche... non avevano lo stoppaccio e si lanciavano spente... dentro una busta ci mettevi la bottiglia piena di benza, due cucchiai di zucchero, ed un'altro componente che non ricordo il nome... quando la bottiglia si rompe, benzina, zucchero e l'acido, venendo a contatto magicamente innescava il fuoco... da pischello ero affascinato da questa che mi sembrava una vera e propria magia... l'esperimento che hai raccontato tu, ti sembrerà assurdo ma la realtà è che non è molto diverso da ciò che innesca una 'boccia chimica'... è una semplice trasmutazione di materia... l'annichilazione come la chiami tu è reale, ma nella stessa misura di altre comuni trasmutazioni... come l'acqua che evapora, oppure non esiste nulla che non può esser fuso... anche i diamanti si fondono... questo perchè tutto ha origine dalla fusione della stella madre, nel processo inverso tutto torna all'origine... Con il tuo esperimento stai invertendo il processo compiuto dalla Natura, e dalla materia ricavi una porzione di energia primordiale nella trasmutazione chimica di precisi elementi... cmq ritengo che il vero problema è localizzabile nella concezione errata che avete dell'energia... questa è la mia interpretazione, e ce ne potrebbero esser altre 200 di ipotesi diverse... quello che non riesco a capire è perchè Tu, di fronte a tali immagini non hai alcun dubbio nel dire che tutto ciò sia ANTIMATERIA... e allora quando l'acqua si ghiaccia ed aumenta il suo volume come la chiamate PLUSVALENZA....!!!!

...lo studio delle traiettorie ascendentali del fumo lo trovo interessante... ciaodino

E perché questa "trasmutazione" (termine che ti invito a non usare, visto che si parla di fisica e non di alchimia: al massimo, puoi usare i termini reazione chimica o transizione di fase, a seconda dei casi che consideri) non può essere generata dall'annichilazione elettrone-positrone?

Partiamo dalle evidenze sperimentali: al paziente viene iniettata una sostanza radioattiva che decade beta+, ossia il nucleo, decadendo, emette un positrone ed un neutrino (il quale non è direttamene rivelabile, tuttavia praticamente non interagisce, quindi nella trattazione è trascurabile).

Supponiamo di non sapere che questa particella emessa sia un positrone, bensì una particella X. Facendo misure in merito, si scopre che X ha la stessa massa dell'elettrone, lo stesso spin dell'elettrone ma carica elettrica opposta, ossia è carico positivamente. Il fatto che la carica di X sia opposta a quella dell'elettrone si può ben vedere utilizzando una camera a nebbia o a bolle e confrontando i prodotti di decadimento di un nucleo che decade beta- con un nucleo che decade beta+. Vedrai che il prodotto del nucleo che decade beta- viene deflesso in un campo magnetico da una parte, mentro quello che decade beta+ viene deflesso dall'altra parte.

Per la misura della massa la cosa è un pochino più elaborata, tuttavia si può vedere che la massa è identica. Idem per lo spin.

Ancora, si può vedere che il momento magnetico di X è identico a quello dell'elettrone, si può vedere che X è una particella stabile come l'elettrone. Si può vedere che X interagisce con le altre particelle in maniera molto simile all'elettrone: l'unica differenza è che, in un esperimento di scattering, i prodotti di diffusione hanno segno opposto a quello che avremmo avuto usando un elettrone.

Ancora, si può vedere che facendo interagire X con un elettrone si ottengono una coppia di fotoni (e nel centro di massa del processo d'urto questi due fotoni sono emessi in direzione opposta), ma si può anche vedere che nella materia, un fotone può convertirsi in una coppia elettrone-X.

Abbiamo tutti questi fatti sperimentali (che puoi controllare anche te andando a fare una ricerca su Internet). Abbiamo anche una teoria, dovuta a Dirac, che prevede l'esistenza di una particella tale e quale all'elettrone, avente tuttavia carica elettrica opposta, che dovrebbe comportarsi esattamente come si comporta X in tutti questi casi sopra esposti. E tale particella sarebbe l'anti-elettrone (o "positone", per dirla alla Dirac).

Quindi, abbiamo tutte queste evidenze sperimentali.


Supponiamo per un attimo che nella PET i fotoni emessi non siano prodotti dall'annichilazione elettrone-positrone. Ora, io non so granché della PET, tuttavia so che:

- viene iniettata una sostanza nel paziente che decade emettendo un positrone;
- i rivelatori messi attorno al paziente osservano due fotoni (o raggi gamma) emessi in direzione opposta;
- tramite questa rivelazione si può fare una "mappatura interna" del paziente;
- tutti questi procedimenti avvengono in maniera controllata: se il processo non fosse ben conosciuto, non mapperesti un bel niente.

Io mi spiego il tutto in questo modo: la sostanza iniettata nel paziente emette un positrone; tale positrone perde la sua (poca) energia per effetto di ionizzazione dei tessuti interni; il positrone, praticamente da fermo, interagisce con un elettrone, annichilandosi; dall'annichilazione vengono prodotti due fotoni in direzione opposta.

Tra l'altro, conoscendo i dettagli di come l'elettrone e il positrone interagiscono con la materia (ovvero, dettagli sulla produzione di coppia e perdita di energia per ionizzazione) è possibile controllare questi processi in modo tale da ottenere una immagine dettagliata.


Invece te sostieni che questa sostanza radioattiva decada, poi qualcosa, poi ci sono due fotoni emessi in direzione opposta. Ora, ciò che ho definito come qualcosa nessuno sa cosa possa essere, eccezion fatta per quello che ho scritto sopra. Se nessuno ha una spiegazione alternativa di cosa accada, dubito fortemente che a qualcuno venisse in mente di usarlo su una persona a scopo medico; inoltre, dubito che, senza conoscere questo qualcosa, si riescano ad ottenere delle immagini corrette del paziente.

Tu dici "si sprigiona energia", senza spiegare niente su come si sprigiona e perché. Tra l'altro, i tuoi fenomeni tipo "si sprigiona il fuoco" sono molto poco precisi. Puoi quantificare?

La fisica da un'ottima spiegazione che è suffragata dai fatti (vai a fare un giro in un laboratorio medico in cui hanno un macchinario per la PET e fammi sapere). E, assumendo che i fotoni siano prodotti dall'annichilazione positrone-elettrone, si ottengono delle ottime immagini. Tra l'altro, i rivelatori sono costruiti e tarati proprio per rivelare un evento come l'annichilazione, non per "si sprigiona il fuoco".

Possibile che sia andata sempre di culo e in realtà tutte le annichilazioni siano in realtà il ben noto "si sprigiona il fuoco"? Nah, non credo. Penso che tu abbia detto l'ennesima cazzata.

Tra l'altro, sei pregato di leggere questo mio intervento, di sforzarti di capirlo ed eventualmente di controbattere in maniera sensata, anziché addurre alla tua errata logica, la quale, non hai ancora capito, non corrisponde alla logica naturale: la natura, ad esempio, pare obbedire alla logica dell'equazione di Schrodinger, che appare, in prima battuta, all'intuizione ordinaria. Uno se ne fa una ragione e deve semplicemente constatare che la Natura non funzione come uno si immaginerebbe con il solo pensiero. Perché va bene il puro ragionamento, ma se questo non è suffragato, come nel tuo caso, da un esperimento, il ragionamento è da prendere e da buttare via. E questo accade anche in fisica, non crederti: sai quante teorie sono state buttate via perché false? Una marea.

Ecco: te rientri proprio nel caso di "teoria da buttare via perché in contrasto con gli esperimenti (e anche perché priva di predire qualcosa)".
Inviato il: 10/11/2012 11:23
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                                                 Re: Meccanica Quantistica ivan 22/2/2013 21:51
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